But the end is only one… groundspeak has a super leverage… it has a 10 years database of caches… but that is all they have

There are some comments about Wherigo starting some time after 47:30 (I forget exactly where). Jeremy acknowledges that there is a disconnect between the current toolset and the people who want to build cartridges, and says that stuff is in the works. He’s even reasonably specific about the stuff: apparently there will be platform support for the iPhone and Android.

It may even turn out that the 18 month silence may have come at a good time (aka, the release was too early). I just checked and was amazed to discover that the iPhone 3G was released in July 2008, two months after the last minor update to the official Wherigo builder. (Disclaimer: I am the author of an alternative Wherigo builder, which although unofficial has been more or less endorsed by Groundspeak.)

In 2007 when the Wherigo platform was being defined and code written, the “obvious” hardware device was a PDA, and as a bonus, Garmin agreed to put the Wherigo player into some of their new, Geocacher-oriented devices. Now, PDAs seem to be more or less dead, and the weaknesses of the Garmin platform are becoming apparent (lack of marketing interest from Garmin; poor implementation quality; difficulty of scheduling software updates between Groundspeak and Garmin). At the same time, it’s become “obvious” that in a fairly short time, a billion people are going to be walking around with a GPS device and enough computing power to run Wherigo properly. This thing still has fantastic potential.

Thanks for your input. I would like clear out things though.

- I know that commercial companies work with volunteers. I used to be a top contributor for the SAP Developers Network. But that’s not the point here. The issue is that one commercializes information – in casu cache information – one got for free. And – as you hit the – nail on the head it has a (near) monopoly with no alternatives.

- I meant with “providing a proper and user friendly way to retrieve it for free” that GC tour provides something which GroundSpeak should provide and the author of GC Tour made it for free, thus no reason for GS to prohibit it or ask money for it if they should provide the same functionality.

> Wherigo: sure, needs some work
It’s still in Alpha and there were no releases for 1.5 year, which is ages in technology terms

> the iPhone Geocaching app is a big, big success.
That statement is as hazy as the term ‘excessive’. Do you have figures?
How many of them are:
- outside the US
- pay there communication bills and not their employer
I didn’t see any on the field yet. Not that we are laggards in BE, but the online costs are high in BE

- Renault doesn’t say that I’m not allowed to use my car because their electrical systems doesn’t work properly. And do get to my garage to complain until the problem is fixed. After all, I paid for a working system. I also paid for my Premium Membership, so I expect the same.

Eddy

>>You’re right; GS shouldn’t be a commercial
>>company, certainly not when it relies on the
>>work of volunteers.
A couple of things in reply to that:
1) The use of volunteers keeps caching free. If caches were reviewed by paid staff, the money would have to come from the cache placers. Want to give your Paypal details for every cache review? $4.99 per cache, and if it isn’t right first time, $2.99 for every back-and-forth e-mail exchange until it’s published?

Actually, you might be surprised how common the use of volunteers is in the US. Many commercial companies, for example, use volunteer forum moderators. Volunteering is a whole different ball game in the US compared to Europe.

2) Groundspeak is a for-profit company and has been since 2000. One might argue that “it would be better for geocaching if the largest, near-monopoly listing site were a collective, open-source organisation, à la Mozilla”, but that isn’t where we are.

Groundspeak represents 3 people’s retirement funds and 30 people’s monthly rent/mortgage payments. We’re all going to have to deal with that. They aren’t going to suddenly retire, hand over the keys to the community, and live in a tent; and the database is pretty much their only tangible asset. I do not blame them for being very, very conservative in how they allow people to extract large chunks of it.

(Personally, I think that a non-profit collective would have been torn apart by infighting after about 18 months – the open-source model is great for software development, but network operations is a whole other ball game, because there are real large bills to be paid, in cash, within 30 days.)

>>Let the cobbler stick to his last and focus on
>>the main goal: hosting caching data and
>>providing a proper and user friendly way to
>>retrieve it for free.
“For free” may be your goal; it’s not Groundspeak’s. Actually, it’s quite impressive how much one can do for a cash outlay of $0.00 on Geocaching.com. You just can’t have their entire database, on your terms, for nothing. That’s the Opencaching model, and they seem to be doing pretty nicely. But if you want to play Groundspeak’s game, with Groundspeak’s smileys, you have to play it their way.

>>At the other hand, GS can – as said in the
>>blog – save a lot of money and work force by
>>focusing on their core business (and work that
>>out in a proper way) and stop creating
>>projects/ (mobile) applications for a small
>>group of users or one doesn’t finish.
Wherigo: sure, needs some work. But the iPhone Geocaching app is a big, big success.

Just a thought: tf your car breaks down, do you start writing blog posts about how Renault should stop making trucks and start concentrating on their core business of getting the Clio’s electrical system right? This is important – with Groundspeak you can see a lot more of what’s going on. Every year, companies far bigger than them – and of which you are a customer – waste billions on broken projects, sometimes putting the future maintenance of your car or perhaps your life savings in danger, and you don’t even get to find out about it because the cancelled projects never get publicised.

Thanks for your input. You’re right; GS shouldn’t be a commercial company, certainly not when it relies on the work of volunteers.
At the other hand, I have to disagree that I don’t present the other side of the problem. I even proposed alternative/solutions like cloud hosting, different membership schemes for the heavy users, etc. That would compensate the ‘cost’ of hosting, which is – considering the mentioned possibilities – in my eyes not so high as you think. At the other hand, GS can – as said in the blog – save a lot of money and work force by focusing on their core business (and work that out in a proper way) and stop creating projects/ (mobile) applications for a small group of users or one doesn’t finish.

Cheers

Eddy

It is a pitty that I couldn’t make it to Leuven on saturday: we could have discussed this around a glass of beer.

I understand your frustration very well about GC not offering the features you would like to see or need and forbiding initiatives of those that come up with creative alternatives.

I am disappointed though that you don’t present enough the other side of the problem. Like for many things in social life, the community is punished because a few misbehave and highjack the community’s ressource. There are many examples of this (and don’t start me on people driving on bus lanes, it is not good at all for my blood pressure).

GC must do the housekeeping and preserve the bandwidth: a few can take a lot of it and then others start to complain (and I have seen that kind of complains here too) that the site is too slow at certain times.

Bandwith is expensive nowadays and Groundspeak beeing a commercial company that has salaries to pay they’re chasing costs. And I have a hunch that they are working on their Disaster Recovery Plan.

The biggest problem (for me) is that GC is built on the american (liberal) model: commercial company. Only paying customer complains are (barely) heard. No view on the financial status or strategy. I prefer for that kind of activity the ASBL/VZW model. If you want to see what is hapenning to your association, become an effective member with voting rights at the general assembly. (not easy though for an international association, but there are examples in the Open Source community that work).

The last thing I wanted to say is that 30$/20euros is not much. I pay more for some associations or magazine.

But frustration is something that spoils the best things…